We get to talk with a good friend, Robert Pearson. I met Rob Pearson, back at work at web visible This was many, many years ago. And we stayed connected over the years. I noticed that he’s running an awesome company working on some of the concepts that I myself aspire to some day. We get to talk about marketing, building business, and the difference between working in the business vs on the business.

You can get in touch with Rob over at Rareview.com.

And through his social media: “80% of our lives should be giving back”

Our Guest

Rob Pearson

Hacks to take Away

  • Launched a company with his brothers called Tad to Ben, which was a full social network for tattoo enthusiasts.
  • He was able to excel because he loves the work that he does. But the structure of the corporate world never really fit for. How I looked at innovation and how I looked at the things that motivated him and how he wanted to move forward in his career.
  • Getting a little bit of that entrepreneurial bug early on, kind of let in, in kind of seeing the other side of it, the experience in the corporate world side of it.
  • As we all know, in the agency world, working with clients has its own different challenges. But when you’re your own boss, it’s a whole different experience.
  • So we had a really good treasure trove of clients, we could go after and really scale-out the marketing and brand side of our house, the Creative Advertising piece. And so you had built itself up to be pretty great and have a pretty great reputation.
  • I didn’t want to spend 20 years at a company getting paid to not do the work that I was super passionate about.
  • Because I think building connections to moving forward is first to brand essential, especially when you’re a freelancer or when you’re running your own business.

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Read Full Transcript

Junaid Ahmed 0:10
Thank you for tuning in to hacks and hobbies with your host Junaid. In Season Two of hacks and hobbies were visited by our amazing guests coming from all walks of life want to learn their story, their struggles and their journey on how they got to where they are today. So stick around.

Welcome to a new episode of hacks and hobbies. In this episode, I get to speak with a good friend, Robert sin. I'm not sure if he goes by Rob Pearson or Rob Pearson, but I've known him as fine. Rob Pearson. Okay, awesome. And so I've met Rob Pearson, back at work at web visible This was many, many years ago. And we stayed connected over the years. And recently I was I was like, let me reach out to rob Pearson And see what he's up to. And I saw that he used running an awesome company, and doing some things very similar to what some things that I want to get into. So I was like, Hey, who better to ask and talk to somebody who's already doing what I want to do in the future. So Rob, thank you so much for taking the time and coming onto the podcast.

Rob Pearson 1:39
Yeah, thanks for having me on. It's good to kind of talk to you again, and you're doing some great things yourself, man. So thanks for having me.

Junaid Ahmed 1:48
Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Awesome. So tell me a little bit about

review, and how you came up with the idea and and like where it all started? And before we get to that, like how did let's do a little backstory on, you know, what inspired you to get to that point?

Rob Pearson 2:12
Yeah, so good question. Rare view is a full service, design and marketing agency. So it's actually ran by my brother and I, my brother's the CEO, I'm the CMO, he runs the design and development side of the house, and I run the marketing side of the house. Which makes it works pretty well. Yeah, we have very different and unique skill set, and we can still beat each other up. And you know, what, what comes out is the best possible solution for our clients. So it's pretty exciting. So kind of back it up. From there, what you're asking me is, how did it How did you even get here? Right? I think you said it in the opening you and I worked together pretty early on in my career at a at a another sort of digital agency, if you will. And throughout my career, I've kind of always had that entrepreneurial bug, if you will, I in college, I launched a company with my brothers called Tad to Ben, which was a full social network for tattoo enthusiasts. So we launched that we did that when I was working on it for eight years on the side, it did great. And we we ended up you know, selling that off that that entire business off to, you know, a full, call it tattoo magazine. Yeah, so it was pretty exciting, pretty fun, all the while working kind of my way up through the corporate ranks. And so, you know, after web visible, you know, I moved on to, you know, a company called real practice where I was head of marketing. And then from there, I jumped over to like sold technology and fashion and design. So, you know, working with that needs and 32 and leverage that to kind of, you know, move me up to San Francisco and work for men's warehouse running their entire digital and innovation, you know, group and, and that was fun. I mean, the corporate world is the corporate world, I think you and I both have a very similar mentality of the corporate world. And it just wasn't a place where I ever felt comfortable. So, you know, I was able to excel because, you know, I love the work that I do. But the structure of the corporate world never really fit for, you know, how I looked at innovation and how I looked at, you know, things that motivated me and how I wanted to move forward in my career. So, you know, getting a little bit of that entrepreneurial bug early on, kind of let in, in kind of seeing the other side of it, the experience in the corporate world side of it, I knew that I had to go out on my own, it was just a matter of time before it could do it. So my brother and I were able to sync up a couple years ago, and really launched the full version of what rare view is today. And we got together, we got we actually the way we did it is we got our first client together. And we worked on that client for about six or seven months. I worked on it part time as I was working my full time gig and he was working on it full time. And we saw how how how good we could do for these clients like how much great work we could do how much we love doing that. As we all know, in the agency world, working with clients has its own different challenges. But when your own you're your own boss, it's a whole different experience, right. So I made the leap, it was a painful leap. So just to be clear, I quit my job, I had two newborn twins at home and a four year old or three year old at time. Yeah. And I quit my corporate job, I said, Forget it, I'm out, I can't do it anymore. Life is too short. And there's too much I want to put out there and get out there and do and this wasn't my path. So I took pretty much a 50% cut in salary in my first year out. But I work for myself, right. And so you know, it was sink or swim. And my brother and I leverage that client to get other clients, you know, and continue to scale the marketing side of revenue revenue, the nice thing we had is revenue had been around for, you know, 13 plus years as a design firm. So we had a really good treasure trove of clients, we could go after and really scale out the marketing and brand side of our house, the Creative Advertising piece. And so

you know, river you had built itself up to be a pretty great have a pretty great reputation. And so about five or six years ago, when we launched it, the marketing and brand side, we were able to really, you know, go after those clients in the first year, we brought on 10 to 15 clients and we've been tripling business ever since.

Junaid Ahmed 7:17
Nice. That's Yeah, that's amazing. Without without a lot of pain.

Right? There's all that pain, right? The growing pain. Yeah. Just looking at an example of a seed, you know, the seed, the seedling has to break through the outer shell to come out of that seed and then start growing and have to you know, face all these adversity grown out of the soil. So yeah, those growing pains are there, no matter what stage of business or growth of that we're at. So yeah, absolutely, man, there's no pain, no gain, right. That's what they say.

Rob Pearson 7:58
There. Exactly. And I think there's a there's a mental threshold, right. So I think, for me, you know, people have different filters and different levels of stress and risk that they're willing to take, right. And for me, I personally just wasn't okay with being in this, like senior corporate role for the rest of my career. It just, I didn't want to spend 20 years at a company getting paid to not do the work that I was super passionate about. And so, you know, there's no such thing as a good time to do anything, right? It's either you just do it or you don't. And so my pain threshold was, am I willing to forgive and partake, like, money and salary and benefits and all these great things for going out and being an entrepreneur and doing my own thing, and having the freedom to, you know, really, like, expand and grow and learn? And for me, it wasn't even a question in my mind, it was just a matter of time and experience. And so, you know, it was painful for everyone involved in it in the sense of, obviously, like, we didn't have the benefits that I had, we didn't have, you know, the salary and income that I had. Yeah, but I had the freedom, right, if I wanted to go home at 230, on a Tuesday, I could do whatever I want it. So to me that was more valuable

Junaid Ahmed 9:24
than catch so true. Because in a face that many times myself, like, especially when working for a company, you're like, Oh, you know, there's this event, or you gotta take your kids to the hospital, or they want to go down, to have a day off. And what, what I started noticing is like, I'm spending two hours commuting every day, Tom come home, you know, the kids need to eat food, finish the homework, get to bed, there's no play time. And your time, just even the worst, because it's dark out, you can work yeah, a lot worse. And in summertime, you're like, all right, we have some daylight, we can go play outside, but then you look at a time like our eyes, you gotta get to head kinds of screws with your mind, but but having this freedom, we're like, All right, I'm done with what I wanted to do today, I have a set schedule, that, you know, I'm getting these things out. And as soon as I'm done, I can go hang out with my kids, you know, build a Lego toy or something, or, or, you know, work on a video that they want to do something and, you know, go check on the bees. So you have a lot of that freedom. But then again, to get to that point, there's a lot of, there's a lot of strategy, there's a lot of thinking through, you know, I've got to do this, I gotta do this, I gotta do this, have this ready? Gotta have you know, and then you also look at automation. And you know, who can help me and building those connections? Because I think building the connections to moving forward is, is first to brand essential, especially when you're when you're a freelancer or when you're running your own business.

Rob Pearson 11:08
Yeah, I mean, I think you nailed it on the head, I think the two things that are the most important out of all of this is from from my perspective is one thing I learned kind of, I guess, you know, both of them, I guess I learned the hard way, in that sense. One is, at the end of the day, if you spend all your hours working in the business, then you lose the perspective of working on the business. And, and we often say that to each other that, how much time today do we spend in the business versus on the business, right. And so you really have to have a defined goal of what you're trying to accomplish. For instance, like every quarter, I know, revenue targets I'm trying to hit I know how many customers I want, I've got my 15 dream clients, right that I'm going after. And yeah, so I've really got a strategic view of how I see this business evolving over the next call it five years, and then let's just call it to back that up the next year, the next three years, the next five years. Yeah, and how I get there, right, and and sometimes that a client that no longer fit, and you're going to fire, and it may hurt, right, because that, I don't know, $10,000 a month, or $25,000 a month, or whatever that number is like it at such a small stage in your business is crucial to success. So you really gotta think through, you know, more of the strategic view of the business and work on like the direction of where you want that business to go, and how you're communicating the ethos of that business versus like the day to day, you know, I've got to do XY and Z. But it also brings up the secondary thing that you just talked about it, you know, you've really got to Be Wise With Your time, right? So we don't spend a lot of time screwing around. The beauty of what you you brought up earlier is I've got three kids at home all under four years old, right? So I'm usually out of the office by 430 every day, and I'm home and we're outside and my son riding his bike, and my other two kids are playing. And as soon as I get home, I'm like everyone get their shoes on, we're going outside, right? So but that's time I'm never going to get back. I mean, like I said earlier, life is short, right? So that, to me is more valuable than sitting in a job at 330 in the afternoon going, I'm just sitting here to be here versus fly, you know, really excited about the freedom that I have to live my life, and you know why I'm at work, I get 40 times more done. And we have a very we use, you know, to your point earlier, we use a couple tools that are really, really, you know, exclusive to the way that we work and those tools, our task managers there, you know, to do the there, you know, client things there, you know, things we need to do to work on revenue, there's things we need to do to, like, build our marketing and, and our brand and right, so it's priority, and you know, it's time. Exactly.

Junaid Ahmed 14:21
No, that's, that's absolutely, absolutely accurate and very clear cut, because it all comes down to Okay, how am I spending my time and, and a lot of the people that I've talked on the podcast, you know, they they've gone through the same struggle, the same pathway, you know, I wanna, I want to have more time for my family. Because we work, right, we are working our day jobs, to provide for our family, to provide that children to provide a place where they can come and call home. But then if we're not spending the time with these kids, right, it's no way to live a life.

Rob Pearson 15:06
One thing, it's not how I it's not how I would want to live my life, right? Like, I'm a family guy, obviously, I'm running a family business. I love my kids, and I want them to grow up, you know, knowing that not only can they work for themselves and do what they want, but being around and being a part of their lives is important, right for me as their father. So you know, not that people in the corporate world don't think that way or, you know, I'm not I'm not saying the opposite is true, either. I'm just saying. For me, that's a priority, right? And so, you know, if that's if that means I'm forsaking, I don't know, let's call it 25 or 30 grand of a salary, then to me that money is worth it. Right? Yeah. So everyone has different priorities. So I would say from from a motivator perspective, money's pretty low on my list, meaning like, it's not a top driver. For me, obviously, I would love to make more money and more money and more money. That's that's obviously the goal of building your own business. Yeah. But it's not the motivator. Does that make sense?

Junaid Ahmed 16:08
Yeah, absolutely. So one thing that the question comes up is, everybody wants to be wealthy? Right. And this is something that I picked up from Tony Robbins, it's like, all right, well, what what is wealthy for you? Right? It's, it all comes down to Okay. Are you comfortable? Right? Do you have debt? No. is all your expenses paid? Yes. Do you have time and freedom to do what you want to do? Yes, well, then, then that's, that's the, that's the American dream. Right. And that's what a lot of people are aiming for, you know, getting that getting to that dream, where they have no debt, they have time to play with their kids, and they have the expenses paid and a little bit on the top that they can go out and do vacation. Wanna?

Rob Pearson 17:00
Yeah, I think you said it, right. Like wealthy is, in my eyes, wealthy is a state of mind, not a monetary value. Right. And so I think, I think we often get back into this, right. And so it's easy to say wealthy, and you look at like the top wealth, guys, right? And you can look at anyone you want. And you can pretty much find anyone out there that doing what you're doing, or has more than what you have, right. And so, I mean, to me, are, the biggest D motivator in life is comparing yourself to other people. And for me, the biggest motivator in my life is, is pushing myself to constantly learn and grow and do things differently. And, and make sure that I'm not falling into the trap of monotony every day. And yeah, and that goes with, like my family and my kids and my business and, and work and everything right, and so exactly wealthy, to me, it is happiness, it's not, it's not a monetary thing, like, course, Money makes things easier. And so, obviously, I'd love to continue to have money. And I'd like to be at a point where money is no more relevant in the sense of, I've got enough money to do whatever I need forever. And that's great. And what that monetary value is, is different for everyone. Oh, yeah. But, you know, I think what often gets lost in that conversation, and I think what I've learned over the last couple years being out as an entrepreneur is, it's really more about the process. And so what I mean by that is like, it's always cool to say, like, that guy's got, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars. And if I did, I would feel XY and Z and whatever, and the grass is always greener on the other side. And then if you had 100 million dollars, you'd be like, Why does everybody hate me? And I don't have any real friends. And I'm not happy, right? So I'm just saying, there's always going to be something. So I think life is about going through the process and understanding that process, and you brought it up like that, that is a huge driver in this economy and everything. We're kind of taught and sold throughout our life as I get a credit card here, buy a house, be in debt, get a car like, right. And so I think if you learn the process of how to manage your money and live debt free and understand the relevance of what comes in, you know, where it goes, and how you scale and budget and save, and in fact and grow. Yeah. And I think that's a process, right? And it is, in my mind, you build your business the same way, right. And it's all a process. And if you're able to figure out that process, and do it really, really well and get control of that process, then wealth is no longer your goal, your goal is to become the best version of yourself. Yeah. And that process helps you get there. If you're wishing the process to work. Like, I wish I'm going to win 100 million a mile on the lotto like that's great. Now, we all wish that right there. I don't know what 7 billion people on this planet that are wishing the same thing you are. But there's only towards it, you know, 10% or less of that are actually going through the process to get there.

Junaid Ahmed 20:15
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And somebody said, you know, the grass is greener, where you water it. So if you think the grass is greener, good point, well, that's because they've been watering it. So you need to start watering on your grass. And the way you do that is by working on yourself on working, you know, set a goal on what you want to do with your life and achieve it because everything is possible. Right? And

Rob Pearson 20:44
for anyone, right, and, and so I think, I think you just have to learn a process that works for you for whatever goal you're trying to achieve. That means getting yourself out of the debt, you need to fake you need to learn how to budget, and you need to learn how pay off your debt, and you need to learn that going forward, you can't have debt, so you should cut up your credit cards, right? And there's a whole process that you got to go through. If you're trying to build a business, you got to learn what is your goal? What are you trying to hit? If that number is? I don't know, let's call it 500,000? How do you back into that number? So if I've got 500,000 clients by or if I have $500,000? in revenue that I'm aiming for my first year, how many clients does that mean? How much do I need to make every month? And as you learn this process, you learn like, Okay, I know that every month, I need to sign two new clients, and those clients need to pay me 20 k a month. Yeah. So what that does is it prevents you from going down routes that you were never intended to go down. So what I mean by that is, if I'm going to start my own business, like for you, for instance, if you're going out there you want to, you know, build on design and data and marketing and build a foundation, right? Yeah, if you take a bunch of $3,000 clients by, you're going to spend all your time managing 15 K and revenue. Yeah, and not growing your business ever. Versus saying like, I'm sorry, like, if you want to work with me, you pay X amount, and this is what's the value you get. And what ends up happening is, you know, you prevent yourself from going down that path. Right, right.

Junaid Ahmed 22:19
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So really, really good. points. Thank you so much. Sure. Cool, man, this was really, you know, not not only was it eye opening, because I've been going through this process I've been I've been watching other people, not other people, but other professionals or other entrepreneurs and how they run their businesses and how they're there. There's a whole process to, like you mentioned, you know, you got to know the process, just like we learn. Let's take driving, for example, right? You you learn the process of how to drive you, you know, take classes, you've you figured out, okay, you need to make sure that mirrors are right, you your seat is correct, and they can see, and then you know, all the different tools that are available to you when you're driving a car. So yeah, get to know that process, get to know, the navigation points to get to your destination.

Rob Pearson 23:12
Yeah, I think you nailed it. And like you said, you know, car enthusiasts, right, going off the driving thing. They they don't essentially love it for you know, always the car in the sense of, obviously, they love the craftsmanship and and the quality that goes into building these like, unbelievable cars, whether it's a you know, 1956 buy Chevy truck or a you know, 2018 my Ferrari, right, like, it doesn't matter, I'm just saying, but it's also they love it, because the way that the car handled on the road, right, the cars worthless, unless you can get it out and drive it on the road. Right? So that's what life's about, right? Like, you got to have that path and that road to drive your car down. And we all have it in us to do it. We just got to get out there and do it.

Junaid Ahmed 24:04
Yep, yep, absolutely. Absolutely. We just gotta do it. Nike said it best. Just

Rob Pearson 24:11
you're one of my favorite brands, I think. I think they've done a great job in in kind of speaking the message of, we're all athletes, and they're just a tool to help us be better at what we are. And that's in today's world. That's where brands fit the best as guys were the hero of the story. And they're our guide, right? Yeah. So if we can position ourselves in our brands that way, then we're the guide to the customer and who whatever problem we're trying to solve.

Junaid Ahmed 24:41
Exactly. Awesome. Yeah. All right. So this is a good point. Let's have some questions for you. That asked you, I

guess, what is one hobby that you wish you got into?

Rob Pearson 24:56
I mean, I've always dreamt about playing the piano. Never had the time. I actually, I picked a couple different instruments. When I was younger, we had to play. And I'm a huge music enthusiast. And now I'm using my kids, right? So when my kids are old enough, they're going to have to play it and one of them is going to have to play the piano so I can learn with them. But that's like one hobby. I'm going to learn. And it's one I wrote my entire life. I've always wished that I knew.

Junaid Ahmed 25:26
Yeah. For me that the one hobby that I wish I got into or did more of is horseback riding. And for the longest time was like more spec writing. And I think the last time I did ride was on my honeymoon. Back in Maui. I want to go again and every year I say okay, I'm gonna go horseback riding. It's been like 13 years, and I haven't gone back again. So hopefully make that happen sometime in the future.

Rob Pearson 25:57
Cuz I do I do. That's pretty cool. adore horses. They're just an amazing animal.

Junaid Ahmed 26:04
All right, what is your favorite movie or TV show? And it's none have a book.

Rob Pearson 26:09
Yeah, so big fan. You know, I get I watch a lot of TV and read a lot of books. TV show. That's kind of tough TV show. I would say one of my favorite. You know, I'm going to go back to the traditional. It's like, you know, Game of Thrones. You can't go wrong. Yeah, with that show. But I will tell you, I'm really passionate about reading and one of my favorite books and live in my nightstand is creative mind the success by Ernest Holmes.

Junaid Ahmed 26:35

Rob Pearson 26:36
said maybe the single best book I've ever read. And if you will, it's the one book that sits in my nightstand at all times.

Junaid Ahmed 26:43
That's awesome. I'll have to

Rob Pearson 26:45
leave. Yeah.

Junaid Ahmed 26:46
It's pretty spectacular. Fantastic. The one book about creativity that I've picked up recently was just came out I think, late last year called the creative curve by Alan Gannett. So if you get a chance,

Rob Pearson 27:00
check that one out. Yeah, I'll have to read it. I haven't read that one. That's, that's awesome. Yeah, those are the most recent one that I've read that I fell in love with was ego is the enemy by Ryan Holliday. Okay, that's another amazing book.

Junaid Ahmed 27:13
Yeah, sounds really good. Awesome. Talking about books, the one book that I'm reading right now. And it's, it kind of dies in into what you and I both are doing with what we love to do, and you know, doing our own thing. And it's called die empty by Todd Henry. And he talks about how, how all, you know, people have so many dreams and so many wishes. They're like, Oh, I wish I had done this. And how you know, you when you die, you have all these aspirations and dreams in your head. But if you actually take them up and listen to that little voice and go through with it, and give it all you got, then you will, you will not have a regret when you're on your deathbed, essentially.

Rob Pearson 28:05
That's like an amazing book. I'll read

Junaid Ahmed 28:07
it. Awesome. So this one is one of my favorite questions, mainly because for the past 10 years, Marvel has blown it. done an amazing job. Who is your superhero?

Rob Pearson 28:21
And it can be DC to doesn't matter. Oh, absolutely. Could be DC kidding.

Yeah, I was just gonna say like, these superhero movies are breaking like movie records at unbelievable rate. Yes. I've never we've, you know, we've never seen this in the history of the movie. You know, if cinema. Anyway, the superhero that I would be, and it's probably not the common one that brought up but I would be the flash.

Junaid Ahmed 28:51
Flash. Yeah. Yeah. Mike. who's who's to everything?

Rob Pearson 28:57

It couldn't be a better fit for my life. Right. I the my, my ongoing thing is, you know, I'm built for speed. I'm a runner. You know, I'm currently training for the Boston Marathon. So the flash couldn't be more relevant in my life and multiple formats, you know, but to me, having time changing speed

changes everything.

Junaid Ahmed 29:23
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm a huge fan of flash as well, mainly because they did the TV show, right. There's an ongoing TV show called the flash on CW. And yeah, it's it's pretty amazing. I look forward to those episodes every week. Like what's going on? You know, which what we're going to do this year, or this season? It's been pretty great. Yeah, it's pretty great. And just you know, the character alone is pretty amazing. Yeah. Alright, if you are a board game, what would it be?

Rob Pearson 29:57
Oh, man. Candyland.

Junaid Ahmed 29:59
Can dealing?

Rob Pearson 30:04
God, if you haven't, you gotta go go get it on Amazon. Okay, you know, it's, it's a childhood game. Funny. It's funny that you brought that up. Literally, it's just you go down this candy path, and you will, you know, different cards. And it's pretty simple game. And I say that because I think of life in the same way. Right? It is, life is a path. And you're often distracted by sweet things. But if you stay on your path, you know, you get to the capital T and with all the rewards. Yeah. And so, and on top of it, my son thinks it's the greatest game of all time. So

Junaid Ahmed 30:43
yeah, I mean, yeah, Andy, like my son. They always asked me, right, we take them for swimming. And on the way back, like, Oh, can we get some candy? Do you have any candy right today? Can I get some dum dum, so some Smarties. All these different games? Cool. Exactly. Awesome, man. Alright, so where can my audience find you and learn more about what you're up to?

Rob Pearson 31:09
Yeah. So you can find it. You can go to rare view, calm, ar ar e, vi, e w calm and check us out where you know, you can find all my information there. You can find me on in LinkedIn at Robert Pearson. But you know, I'm always available. I'm always willing to talk to people and help them through the process. I think 80% of our lives should be giving back. Right. So, you know, go check me out on LinkedIn. Find me on social on Instagram. I'm Pearson 17 on, you know, Twitter. I'm Rob's reason. And I'm out there, you know, so feel free to go out there and find me.

Junaid Ahmed 31:48
Yeah, I'll be I'll be sharing those links in the in the show notes so people can get to go quickly. Cool, man. This was really awesome. Thank you so much for your time.

Rob Pearson 32:00
Thank you for having me, man. It was great. Catching up. I think you know, the questions you had are pretty remarkable. And thanks for doing what you do.

Junaid Ahmed 32:07
I appreciate it, sir. This is this is great.

Rob Pearson 32:10
Have a good day. All right. You too.

Junaid Ahmed 32:16
Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this episode on hacks and hobbies. We absolutely appreciate your contribution. You can find additional notes on hacks and hobbies. com. please share the podcast with your friends and tell them what you learned about our guests today.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Junaid Ahmed has been a user experience designer for over 15 years. As a UX professional, he uses the user-centered design philosophy to come up with solutions. Trust the system, it works!

“People say that we only live once, but I believe in living every day!”

Junaid has been interviewing people from all walks of life on his podcast Hacks and Hobbies.